Solihull Council WANT more good quality HMO's to be developed by landlords - an invitation to a meeting | Page 2 | Discuss

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Solihull Council WANT more good quality HMO's to be developed by landlords - an invitation to a meeting
15/06/2014
1:11 am
Amy
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Mary Latham said
When a property is let to more than 2 unrelated sharers it comes under HMO Management standards one of those are that it is the responsibility of the landlord to make sure that the rubbish is put out for collection - if a tenant is will to do this on your behalf thats fine but legally it is the landlords job in an HMO.

In an HMO it is also the landlords responsiblity to keep the exterior of the property in good order, this includes gardens, drives, paths, rainwater goods, drains etc.

 

So in fact the HMO tenants who expect this probably know their legal rights and the landlords legal responsibilities.

 

Don't shoot the messenger

Hi Mary Laugh

I know my legal right too,  but with certain tenants i do not get my legal right and they never mention that particular rule .SmileWink

1.2 To pay the Rent at the times and in the manner specified in The Particulars whether or not it has been formally
demanded.

 

Re: Rubbish

I hate seeing the outside of rented property with rubbish all around so i changed the use of my house to enable me access to keep the gardens and outside clean and in good order.  

It does not state the regulations for HMO LL responsibiity on rubbish on the AST that i have to give my HMO tenants  

 

 Waste and Refuse rules for the tenants on the AST 

1.35 To keep the exterior free from rubbish and place all refuse containers etc. in the allocated space for collection
on the day for collection.
1.36 To undertake disposal of refuse by placing refuse in the receptacles provided and in particular comply with any
local authority recycling policy by using the correct containers provided for that purpose. In the case of any
dustbins to ensure that all general rubbish that cannot be recycled is placed and kept inside a plastic bin liner
before placing in such dustbin

The AST does not say that this excludes HMO tenants from responsibilty 

 Rules for the tenant on my AST about the garden 

1.31 To keep the garden in the same character; weed free and in good order and to cut the grass at reasonable
intervals during the growing season

 

I could go on and on about the difference between the rules on the standard AST that tenants read for self contained property and the HMO rules you have just quoted. 

I look after 3 HMO's and the bedrooms are like little hotel rooms. 

A lot of my tenants have been living long term in B&B's and hotels then commuting home with their personal items every weekend

I would love to be able to run a mini type long term 7 day a week self catering style hotel but there is no legal provision for it 

I would also want the the same rights on the mini hotel as the hotel has regarding  tenants that do not want to pay on time or abide by the rules. It would help to keep the rebelious tenants in line   

 It only takes one inconsiderate tenant to spoil it for everyone and that one person can empty your house. 

Heres another rule from my legal AST .

Number of
Permitted
Occupiers:
The maximum number of people permitted to occupy the Property is: 1

Give them a double bed and they will bring a 'friend' in who clutters up the workers bathroom and makes your HMO illegal 

But no judge ever says . 'Oh -but Mr tenant I know you dont want to leave-  but- you did not adhere to the rule on permitted occupiers  in the HMO '

I could go on and on (which i probably will later ) Laugh

 

 

 

 

15/06/2014
9:41 am
Patricia A
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Amy . Get a copy of the HMO rules and get a solicitor to make it into a legal document

Give 2 copies of that and the AST  to the HMO tenant  , both documents signed by you, a witness and the tenant. A copy for yourself 

See if that confuses the hell out of them! Smile

15/06/2014
10:35 am
Mary Latham
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The duties of an occupier in an HMO are actually very simple and are enshrined in legislation as are the duties of the landlord.

The terms of an AST are irrelevant - the law cannot be changed by a term in a contract, regardless of who draws up the contract and who signs, whether it is an AST or a Deed. There is no legal requirement to give a tenant an AST, we must simply provide certain information, if we choose to use an AST that is good practice but whatever terms we choose to include do not change the law and they are "terms" not "rules". There is also no such thing as a legal or illegal AST there are, however, enforceable and unenforceable contract terms - which can only be enforced with a Court Order. I did not quote "rules" I quoted primary legislation. 

Paul will be putting the full rules and a link to the legislation into the Knowledge Pool next week but in the meantime here is the part that applies to tenants/occupiers

 

Duties of occupiers of HMOs

10. Every occupier of the HMO must—

(a)conduct himself in a way that will not hinder or frustrate the manager in the performance of his duties;

(b)allow the manager, for any purpose connected with the carrying out of any duty imposed on him by these Regulations, at all reasonable times to enter any living accommodation or other place occupied by that person;

(c)provide the manager, at his request, with any such information as he may reasonably require for the purpose of carrying out any such duty;

(d)take reasonable care to avoid causing damage to anything which the manager is under a duty to supply, maintain or repair under these Regulations;

(e)store and dispose of litter in accordance with the arrangements made by the manager under regulation 9; and

(f)comply with the reasonable instructions of the manager in respect of any means of escape from fire, the prevention of fire and the use of fire equipment.

 

None of these legal requirements can be enforced by the landlord or property manager and if a tenant is failing to meet them the landlord needs to take legal action to enforce them or ask the local authority to assist.  A good example would be point  b.  The wording is specific "ALLOW the Manager"  this means that the Manager must gain the tenants permission and if it is withheld he/she cannot simply force the tenant to give entry. The tenants right of "quiet enjoyment" conflicts with this legislation and therefore only a Court can decide who has the superior right., unless the local authority can convince  the tenant to co-operate in the interest of health and safety.

Point f must be read in conjunction with regulation 9 which reads

 

Duty to provide waste disposal facilities

9.  The manager must—

(a)ensure that sufficient bins or other suitable receptacles are provided that are adequate for the requirements of each household occupying the HMO for the storage of refuse and litter pending their disposal; and

(b)make such further arrangements for the disposal of refuse and litter from the HMO as may be necessary, having regard to any service for such disposal provided by the local authority.

 

Last year several local authorities decided to withdraw their free rubbish collections from HMO's and even began to charge for the bins that they provided.  They were charging thousands of pounds to the owners to collect the rubbish until the NLA stepped in and stopped this.  I know a landlord in the north of the country who decided to pay a commercial rubbish removal company because it was cheaper than the local authority and he was paying £35,000 a year. I wrote about this in my book which was published last May.

 

 

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15/06/2014
2:40 pm
Amy
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So basically,  the 13 pages of AST that i give my regular let tenants and my HMO tenants are just terms and not law. If they want to ignore them they can. 

Is the HMO duty for LL a term or law? 

Hmm 

What does an AST with just the law on it (No terms) look like? 

 

15/06/2014
3:39 pm
Patricia A
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I always think of terms as the terms and conditions  on a contract or a companies website. 

If you do not stick to the terms and condtions they have the right withdraw any services that they provide. Even though you may have pre paid for them.  

 

15/06/2014
5:13 pm
Mary Latham
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Amy said
So basically,  the 13 pages of AST that i give my regular let tenants and my HMO tenants are just terms and not law. If they want to ignore them they can. 

Is the HMO duty for LL a term or law? 

Hmm 

What does an AST with just the law on it (No terms) look like? 

 

You are entitled to use terms and conditions on your AST because this tells a tenant what they can expect from you and what you expect from them and it is good practice. The fact is that these are your terms of business but they are only enforceable if the law supports them, I know this is crazy. It is because we are providing homes rather than any other goods or services that the law does not allow us to simply withdraw our services because a contract term has been broken as would be the case in any other business.  If this were not the case we would not need this web site because we could simply throw out a tenant who did not pay or did major property damage etc., and as we all know this is illegal eviction.

This is the price of choosing to be a provider of the most important of human needs

Please don't anyone start with "food is an essential need but you cannot steel from Tescos"  The law IS and if we don't like the law that applies to this business perhaps its time we got out and into a more provider friendly business?

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15/06/2014
5:14 pm
Mary Latham
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Patricia A said
 

I always think of terms as the terms and conditions  on a contract or a companies website. 

If you do not stick to the terms and condtions they have the right withdraw any services that they provide. Even though you may have pre paid for them.  

 

Please see my reply to Amy's post

Landlord- Tenant law is totally different from any other legislation surrounding businesses in the UK

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15/06/2014
6:22 pm
amy
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it could be improved though

15/06/2014
8:41 pm
Amy
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I know i rant on But its because: 

I have found that my short term HMO business tenants are  different from permanent HMO tenants.

 

I find my higher paid short term tenants are very happy and respectful 

They are pleased that they are not paying higher rent for hotels and they have use of a room 7 days a week with no one (hotel maids etc) going in. They go home weekends but can leave possession in their room . 

 

After speaking to another regular rent LL this morning who has just been to court again for the 3rd time on a non paying tenant owing £6K.

I decided, at least if one of mine stops paying the other tenants rents can carry the bills for a while 

I hear of so many LL having trouble with modern regular let tenants and yet my regular let tenants  are all years old and no trouble. 

Stroppiness . It seems to be a new fashion amongst modern tenants. Must be something to do with Shelter LaughLaughWink

 

 

16/06/2014
4:58 am
PaulBarrett
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Mary Latham said

Amy said
So basically,  the 13 pages of AST that i give my regular let tenants and my HMO tenants are just terms and not law. If they want to ignore them they can. 

Is the HMO duty for LL a term or law? 

Hmm 

What does an AST with just the law on it (No terms) look like? 

 

You are entitled to use terms and conditions on your AST because this tells a tenant what they can expect from you and what you expect from them and it is good practice. The fact is that these are your terms of business but they are only enforceable if the law supports them, I know this is crazy. It is because we are providing homes rather than any other goods or services that the law does not allow us to simply withdraw our services because a contract term has been broken as would be the case in any other business.  If this were not the case we would not need this web site because we could simply throw out a tenant who did not pay or did major property damage etc., and as we all know this is illegal eviction.

This is the price of choosing to be a provider of the most important of human needs

Please don't anyone start with "food is an essential need but you cannot steel from Tescos"  The law IS and if we don't like the law that applies to this business perhaps its time we got out and into a more provider friendly business?

 

 

 

Your last paragraph encapsulates neatly the PRS LL .

Very few PRS LL appreciate the very pertinent point you make!

We all get indignant that this IS the way things are.

Most of us find out after the fact that this IS the way things are!!Yell

I bet if new PRS LL knew about the point you have made there would be some different investment decisions being made!

Trouble is most of come to the realisation that this IS the way things are after the fact!

By then we normally have been well and truly stitched up by wrongun tenants.

All a bit late in the day to moan about it.

We have made our bed and we have to lie in it unless we wish to sell up and buy shares in Tesco's!!

The more experienced and usually maturer PRS LL knows all the wrinkles and is not especially fazed when things go wrong cos he knows what ALL the risks are and plans for a worse case scenario.

NOT so us newbie PRS LL!

We are the proverbial lambs waiting for the wronguns to slaughter us!!

It is our fault because of the way it IS!!!

Frustrating as this reality is; we have to rise above the situation and accept our lot and endeavour to manage the situation cos ALL the moaning in the world will NOT change the way it IS!

One can only hope that aspirant PRS LL and newbie LL appreciate your wise words and determine what they might do based on the reality as it IS and NOT the way they would like it to be!

I just wish I understood that when I first started out.

I came to the understanding somewhat late in the day and at great unrecoverable costYell

I don't think 6 years ago there was such a presence of such LL fora and helpful professionals as yourself to guide newbie aspirant PRS LL.

Better late than never so that hopefully new PRS LL won't make the mistake of misunderstanding what it IS all about!!?

It must surely be to the good that we have a more informed LL base; which I know you would suggest should be actioned by LL ensuring they become accredited.

Doing so would surely stop most LL being caught out by wrongun tenants.

We have a long way to go before uninformed PRS LL stop being indignant because they have failed to understand that the market they have chosen to invest in IS the way it IS.

A case of suck it up and deal with it or get out of the market or don't even bother entering it!!

Harsh I know but that's business in this market!Frown

 

 

16/06/2014
8:15 am
David Price
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Harsh it may be Paul but my main complaint is that the goal posts are continually being moved and rather ill thought out statute leaves many landlords inadvertently in contravention of the law.  Superstrike and its aftermath is an extreme example.  (it is interesting to note that for the purposes of 'landlord border control' an SP tenancy is not considered to be a new tenancy - HMG please explain how one law can deliberately contradict another.)

Added to this the daft decisions of government concerning Universal Credit which is likely to deprive us of a large proportion of our income, selective licensing which will not achieve its stated objective - I could go on but its all been said before.

Being a landlord is not the profession it was when I first started some 30 years ago and that is what I am complaining about, unnecessary, burdensome legislation.

Mary Latham has published a superb and concise way forward which would revolutionise the letting industry, why is no one in government circles taking any notice?

We must abide by the law (and so must the tenants) but there is every reason why we should seek to get bad law changed.

16/06/2014
10:53 am
Patricia A
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David Price said
Harsh it may be Paul but my main complaint is that the goal posts are continually being moved and rather ill thought out statute leaves many landlords inadvertently in contravention of the law.  Superstrike and its aftermath is an extreme example.  (it is interesting to note that for the purposes of 'landlord border control' an SP tenancy is not considered to be a new tenancy - HMG please explain how one law can deliberately contradict another.)

Added to this the daft decisions of government concerning Universal Credit which is likely to deprive us of a large proportion of our income, selective licensing which will not achieve its stated objective - I could go on but its all been said before.

Being a landlord is not the profession it was when I first started some 30 years ago and that is what I am complaining about, unnecessary, burdensome legislation.

Mary Latham has published a superb and concise way forward which would revolutionise the letting industry, why is no one in government circles taking any notice?

We must abide by the law (and so must the tenants) but there is every reason why we should seek to get bad law changed.

HMO. I noticed a HMO  is only supplying only 5 days a week accommodation
with very basic cooking facilities. New terms for the AST ? 

Mary talks about Private Landlords and good practice. Which i agree with but most Private LL are between a rock and a hard place. One term for us and different laws for council and housing associations 

A new council tenant is now causing havoc to good private tenants of many years. No referencing by council. That is bad practice. The  laws just keep treating us as bad LL . Guilty until proven innocent 

Bad LL and good LL should be treated differently and that is why Mary is trying so hard to change things. 

 

 

 

16/06/2014
11:21 am
Amy
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Paul B 

I have been sucking it up and dealing with it for 40 + yearsSmile

I have seen all the changes. I have tried to divert around them like you do.  Laugh

I remember the new eviction laws and the court requirements etc etc 

I was probably one of the first to try eviction legally and lost a really good amount of money doing it. 

Last year i went to the council HMO meeting. 

I was given a booklet with the law on starting a HMO and fire safety etc.

No mention was made of Managers Duty

I already practice Managers Duty because it is logical  

I know the terms (Not rules) Wink on the AST and havent really had to try to enforce them very often. 

I started looking at them when the HMO tenant quoted the AST as he saw it 

So i have learn't something from Mary about terms and law.

This has started my family looking at tenancies from a different angle. We had a meeting last night.  My son has today given a S21 to one of his tenants to release some money and we are investigating different business avenues. I have an awful lot of money tied up in property and my accountant said its time i bought a decent house to live in and a ferrari before i die. Not long to go. Smile 

I am keeping my good tenants of many years because i will not make them homeless. But i am going to spend some of the proceeds of my 'criminal' business (according to the politicians.) Wink

16/06/2014
6:54 pm
Amy
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Vindication: Laugh

One of the young airline staff at the same HMO where the 'lower paid worker permanent resident' quoted the AST law to me.

Brought his mom and dad from the other end of the country to see his room  .

He proudly showed them the house and my beautifull well kept garden. 

His mom works for one of the the government ministers. 

We were putting the bins out  

 

16/06/2014
9:38 pm
Patricia A
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Amy,  i know we are a business but its still nice to be appreciated by people who think we are value for money. 

Like a restaurant where customers love the food. Smile

Perhaps one day the gov and councils will appreciate the PRS 

I think Solihull Council in conjunction with Mary and the NlA are trying to work towards that at the moment 

11/07/2014
10:14 am
alexJ
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PaulBarrett said
Very few LL EVER register their properties as HMO's if they have 2 or more unrelated sharers.

I don't and NEVER will!

Any tenant that has a lodger I suppose becomes a HMO 

Just stupid regulations which nobody takes any notice of.

HMO regs should be as they were intended for 5 people and 3 storeys.

Councils must know they are being ignored and they have no way of finding out; so why they bother with such stupid regs I'll never know!?

I don't even know what the regs are for a sharing situation and I'm not the slightest bit interested.

I have been renting for over 6 years to 2 unrelated sharers on 1 AST in purpose built 2 bed 2 bath flats.

If the council thinks that I am going to comply with some stupid HMO regs they have got another thought coming!

Silly old councils.

If LL complied with their silly HMO regs it would destroy the purpose built nature of our properties.

People are sharing property all over the country without taking any notice of such stupid regs.

Technically it seems that any tenant who is given permission  to take in a lodger by the LL then makes the property an HMO!!!

No wonder LL treat councils with contempt!!

Practically every flat round by way has more than 2 unrelated sharers occupying.

NONE of them is registered as a HMO with the council.

 

Very few landlords will try to change their mortgage from a Buy To Let to a HMO mortgage either considering how much it costs ! 

Mate just tried to do it . 

11/07/2014
10:56 am
Amy
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Quote from Mary's thread

Solihull Council are struggling to find homes for tenants on benefits and are concentrating their resources there because landlords can get a much better return and less work from the working market.

I hope you dont mind Paul- but i have copied and pasted my reply from Marys Item to this other thread from Mary. You can delete if you want 🙂 

Origininal thread.

http://www.landlordreferencing.....re/#p24899

It would help if councils would work with landlords instead of against them 

My council is Solihull and i have quite a few well behaved long term tenants of many years living in council blocks 

I also have friends who own the same type of properties

We have all been issued with letters stating that we have to change our flats front doors to fire doors at £650 each 

Two years ago we were told to change our wooden doors to plastic burglar proof multi lock doors at £550 a push 

A large amount of private landlords also own and manage their own blocks and we just have installed new lighting. Security system. A a new securely gated car park and repaired garages. This is a matter of concern to us. 

If this is  law will it result in councils instructing us how to manage and spend money our own private blocks? 

Also:  recently we landlords have experienced a glut of tenants giving their notice in from council blocks 

These tenants have lived peacefully in our council block flats for years. 

On closer examination we have found out that the council have been putting 'ner do wells' into the council  blocks who are causing chaos

To add insult to injury the 'ner do wells'  damaged the community areas last year and a bill was sent out to the private landlords for repair. The council tenants do not pay. 

We have all just had more bills because the communty areas have been damaged again, New doors glass etc. 

Why should the council put these bad tenants into blocks where good tenants are and then the private landlord gets the bill for their bad behaviour ? 

 
07/03/2015
11:32 pm
Amy
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PaulBarrett said
Very few LL EVER register their properties as HMO's if they have 2 or more unrelated sharers.

I don't and NEVER will!

Any tenant that has a lodger I suppose becomes a HMO 

Just stupid regulations which nobody takes any notice of.

HMO regs should be as they were intended for 5 people and 3 storeys.

Councils must know they are being ignored and they have no way of finding out; so why they bother with such stupid regs I'll never know!?

I don't even know what the regs are for a sharing situation and I'm not the slightest bit interested.

I have been renting for over 6 years to 2 unrelated sharers on 1 AST in purpose built 2 bed 2 bath flats.

If the council thinks that I am going to comply with some stupid HMO regs they have got another thought coming!

Silly old councils.

If LL complied with their silly HMO regs it would destroy the purpose built nature of our properties.

People are sharing property all over the country without taking any notice of such stupid regs.

Technically it seems that any tenant who is given permission  to take in a lodger by the LL then makes the property an HMO!!!

No wonder LL treat councils with contempt!!

Practically every flat round by way has more than 2 unrelated sharers occupying.

NONE of them is registered as a HMO with the council.

 

Paul. I have just been doing some market research on new homes. I Visited new homes sites and was told by a sales person that they sold out of the new design- two bedroom homes with both bedrooms en suite straight away. They just flew out the door. Every time they build a new site they change the designs of the houses to improve them to fit in with the feedback from previous clients. They told me that single people have bought the two beds with the specific purpose of having a lodger. They also  also mentioned that the next phase would be 3 en suite bedrooms. Now that would be a nice ready made HMO ! 

If councils want to cure the housing problem they have to give a little . 

08/03/2015
4:22 pm
alex J
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I have read all of this thread and its seems that the difference between a HMO and an ordinary rental is that the HMO billls are inclusive and each tenant has his own AST .

If four people share under one AST  and are paying their own bills , its not an HMO- even if its a 3 story building  

08/03/2015
5:59 pm
Mary Latham
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Alex an HMO is defind in the HA 2004 where more than two unrelated people share facilities it is an HMO. When 5 or more people share facilities over 3 floors it is a licensable HMO. Regardless of the number of ASTs or how bills are paid 

 

Mary Latham Landlord 

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