BRISTOL LANDLORDS AGAINST SELECTIVE LICENSING FORUM MINUTES – 29th Sept 2016 | Discuss

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BRISTOL LANDLORDS AGAINST SELECTIVE LICENSING FORUM MINUTES – 29th Sept 2016
11/10/2016
4:40 pm
News @ Tenant Referencing
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NATIONAL LANDLORD CODE OF EXCELLENCE LTD BRISTOL FORUM

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MINUTES OF THE BRISTOL LANDLORDS AGAINST SELECTIVE LICENSING FORUM HELD ON

29 September 2016

PRESENT: The following members signed the attendance record for the meeting.

S. Jackson     NLCE
P. Routledge     NLCE
S. Boyd     NLCE
A. Pargeter     Landlord
K. Hale     Landlord
A. Collier     Landlord
P. White     Landlord
D. McGrath     Landlord
R. Crawford     Association of Local Landlords (Wessex) Ltd
G. Peters     Landlord
S. Routledge     Landlord
J. Paice     Bristol Association of Letting & Management Agents (BALMA)
D. Hamblin     Landlord
B. Kelley     Landlord
C. Elliott     Landlord
D. Knight     Landlord
R. Sharp     Landlord
M. Grant     Landlord
C. Grigg     Landlord
Z. Ahmed     Landlord

  1. Apologies

J Hunt, R. Winkworth, R. Osbourne, M.Longley, K.Staunton, I.Onions, R.Mathews, J.Higson, Y.Giudetti, Councillor Asher Craig, Councillor Ruth Pickersgill.

2. Minutes from previous meeting - n/a

3. Matters arising – n/a

4. North Somerset Selective Licensing U-Turn

North Somerset Council approved the introduction of a selective licensing scheme earlier on this year, to improve poor quality private rented housing in Weston-super-Mare town centre. This saw the introduction of the Somerset Property Network; a group of landlords who decided to join forces to oppose the new licensing scheme. In just 2 weeks they managed to raise £12,000 to take the council to Judicial Review in order to overturn the decision, as they deemed the initial consultation to be perfunctory and unnecessary; ‘a money making exercise at the expense of good landlords and tenants.’

North Somerset Council officially stated in August that that they would not be progressing with the original licensing scheme as they are aware that the Somerset Property Network had challenged this decision, suggesting a number of alternatives.

Question: Within Bristol we have a landlord forum with the councils of Bristol and surrounding councils which includes North Somerset. Their take on it was that they basically put it in the bottom draw and are waiting for the group of landlords to now come up with a way of doing things without licensing. Also, in Bristol, we're waiting for mandatory licensing to be redefined and the next communication on that from the government should be in November. That could be a written expansion of what we know is mandatory requirement. It may cover all two bedroom apartments above shops, because that is where some of the main issues are and if you're going to go down to HMO's with two different people under the definition of mandatory licensing, that's going to encompass a hell of a lot of houses.

I think, as we've got Wandsworth stepping back now, a lot of councils are now stepping back from introducing selective or additional licensing because they're waiting for this mandatory definition; because it may save them alot of work. It's going to be a nightmare for us if it goes the wrong way...

Answer: The differences between Mandatory, Selective and Additional Licensing are:

Mandatory:
Apply for a mandatory (HMO) licence if you are a landlord of a house in multiple occupation that is three or more storeys, shared by five or more people living in two or more households.

Selective:
Apply for a selective licence if you are a landlord of a property that is rented by a single family household or shared by two unrelated tenants.

Additional:
Apply for an additional licence if you operate a house in multiple occupation that is shared by three of more tenants living in two or more households. This excludes houses in multiple occupation that require a mandatory licence.

Question: The point I'm trying to make is that councils will roll over quite easily at the moment, until they know what this definition is, because it may actually encompass the properties that they're trying to find.

Answer: Yes they will, but even then they'd still have the ability to selectively license on top of the mandatory license.

  1. National Landlords Code of Excellence (NLCE)

The NLCE is the National Landlord Code of Excellence Limited, founded by 57 landlords and tenant investors, formed to assist landlords and tenants in working together to overcome the impasse that can be created in the Private Housing Sector, due to everyday problems that can arise between a landlord and a tenant. The NLCE is a forward thinking community that finds the tools to create a resolve to these everyday problems.

Question: How many landlords do you think there are in Bristol?

Answer: In this area, I think there are 2,500-3000.

Question: How many landlords did the Somerset Property Network start with?

Answer: Two!
The only way that you can stop a bison being brought down by a bunch of hyenas is to get more bison! Primarily, Bristol landlords need to prove that they can self-regulate; through the NLCE.

Question: Is this an accreditation scheme just for landlords?

Answer: No; partnerships, limited companies and agents are welcome to join as well as PRS landlords (individuals).

Question: How is this accreditation different?

S. Jackson:

This is another option to selective licensing, and as I have stated in law Selective licencing should always be the last resort. Councils have to consider us before starting a scheme. It’s based on The Midland Landlord Accreditation Scheme (MLAS); a huge success with over 3,000 members, 8 councils, universities, etc - but we’ve taken it a step further.

The Head of Housing in North Somerset asked me what’s the difference between what you’re coming up with and what we came up with? And I said ‘Well, the day you published your 77 page landlord manual that you think landlords are going to sit and read (let me tell you, very few will!), it was out of date! We are talking about accreditation, we’re talking about them having to come to a seminar, and we’re talking about them having to earn CPD points. It’s not going to take a landlord that much - it’ll take them 1 day and over 5 years they’ll have to do a few courses to prove they’ve earned their CPD points and that their knowledge is up to date. There’s your first major difference! Also your accreditation can be done online and anyone can just google the answers! So A: you’ve got them captured in a room, not reading a 77 page out-of-date manual and B: you’ve just told me that you try to work with anti-social behaviour tenants and problem tenants with the aim to make them better; well if we’re educating and teaching landlords through an accreditation scheme that’s way more than a scheme that you can just google the answers and pass straight away! They actually have to sit there and learn…’

It won’t stop selective licensing but it will possibly mean that anyone in this scheme doesn’t get selectively licensed or doesn’t get charged as such. It will stop selective licensing in new areas…

Question: So where does that leave us now?

Answer: What Bristol landlords need is unity. What you can do is join the NLCE and then you can get the strength together to fight selective licensing ongoing.

More importantly, when you do something in life you’re accountable for it. So at the moment, in the 3 areas they’ve selectively licensed, let’s take Stapleton Road. They’ve released the figures on Stapleton Road and they’ve boasted ‘Does Selective Licensing Work?’ The council has a duty of care; it cannot show inadequacies in any decision it makes. So, if you’re going to go out and selectively license 2,000 landlords and you’re going to charge them £470 per property you’ve got to show them value for money. So first and foremost, you would have taken them to judicial review on the basis that their figures were perfunctory and that’s because there wasn’t necessarily a problem with homelessness, there was a problem with certain individual landlords; that they had the power to deal with that. All of a sudden, what’s happening here is you’re turning round and going ‘Oh, well you’ve brought in selective licensing on this massive failure. So with our £470 per property you’re going to correct that failure…The interesting part about it is there isn’t a failure to correct! So therefore, why did you charge us £470?...’
First and foremost, it’s dishonest. Secondly, your consultation was inadequate in the first place. Which suddenly brings to light that you have a case of maladministration. For those who don’t know what maladministration is; basically the government have a duty to give you what you pay for.

Take Stapleton Road as an example. The government guidelines on Selective Licensing mean that they have to be able to prove that at the point of selectively licensing an area it has to specifically have 20% of poor housing stock.

Stapleton Road figures, as supplied by BCC, show us that:

  • Out of 1,100 PRS homes, 199 houses had serious health and safety issues.
  • 199 VS 1,100 = 18.9%. (Remember the government target is 20%, so that is 1.1% under what they’re allowed to selectively license under government guidelines. So, immediately, the figures they’ve quoted are perfunctory.)
  • Out of those 199 serious health and safety issues 8 landlords were prosecuted; not for poor housing conditions but for not getting a licence…!
  • 3 landlords were prosecuted for not bringing PRS housing stock up to standard.
  • There were 250 complaints to the benefit office for benefit fraud, anti-social behaviour and violence within the family. Sorry, but what do these have to do with PRS landlords?…

And they are boasting this as a success!... Which is why you need more landlords behind you to take this further with Bristol Council. Our strength in Weston-super-Mare was that we walked in with 180 landlords behind us; that’s a voice. So you’ve got to get out there and find these landlords. Get your agents to find these landlords, and then we’ve got to fill this room and the next room and the next one.

Question: So it’s too late to go to judicial review?

Answer: Yes, it is too late and you have to be selectively licensed in Eastville and St George. But these sort of stats can be constantly asked for and the pressure can be placed, so that it doesn’t go to the next area. Because there’s one thing that you can be really sure of and that is that it will go onto the next area. That’s why we started the Somerset Property Network in North Somerset; Selective Licensing is an absolute scam!

Question: When you join the NLCE, does it count as 1 property if you have 6 flats?

Answer: Yes; with the NLCE, you are one member. The NLCE is based on mandatory licensing, which is established on the competency of the landlord. So it doesn’t matter whether you have 1 or 100 properties; we work on the principle that if you are competent all of those properties will be up to standard and that you adhere to all the necessary legislation. Unlike Selective Licensing which is placed on the property, so even if you are a good landlord you still need to pay individually for each property.

Question: What would happen if all the landlords banded together to stop the next areas from getting Selectively Licensed?

Answer: When the next consultation comes out we will deal with the consultation, together.

Question: Has anyone seen the consultation for Eastville and St George?

Answer: Yes, I have.

I believe that the whole thing was a shambles from the very beginning; the statistics they’ve come out with, how the consultation said the areas of Eastville and St George are in the lowest 10% for deprivation and yet their own stats on the Bristol Council website on multiple deprivation figures state that Eastville and St George are in the top 13th and 15th and not in the lowest 10% at all.

I looked at this and kept thinking there is something really, really wrong here, so when I got the Cabinet Meeting papers of how they had come to the decision of how they were going to approve this scheme for Eastville and St George they used 3 points of evidence. I discussed this with Dave Collis (BCC Private Housing Licensing Manager) last week.

  1. The housing condition survey of 2011.

About 110 pages long, it talks about all the private housing in Bristol but doesn’t distinguish between private housing and private rented accommodation, so really there were no statistics that they could use because there weren’t any other than shaded maps for the whole of private housing in Eastville and St George. Besides, rented accommodation is only 21% of total private accommodation anyway.

  1. The 427 complaints.

I don’t know whether you’ve read the consultation, but for the year 2014/15 427 complaints were received by the Council for Eastville and St George and, according to the Council, this cabinet report was 24% of the total complaints in Bristol. When I mentioned this to Mr Collis he said ‘that’s not true, that’s not true at all’ … I said ‘I’m sorry, I’ve got your cabinet report in front of me and that’s what is actually written down here.’ Collis replied ‘Oh, I better go and have a look at that.’ and I thought yes, you better had.

  1. The survey.

Then we got onto this survey.

According to the Council they were really pleased because 2,248 completed the online survey; e.g. 1,000 of these were tenants, 356 landlords or agents, etc, etc, 1,287 said they were experiencing poor management by their landlord, 1,347 said they’d experienced poor housing conditions, etc..I mean it was a sob story, it really was! And I looked on there and thought this is Survey Monkey you know, come on-I mean anyone is on Survey Monkey !

I looked up Survey Monkey and I found that somebody had actually gone on this site and said Come on guys, only 81 tenants have responded to this survey, we need to get others on it’ and people from outside the Bristol area were responding with things like ‘f’ing landlords, etc’…Which is where this 2,248 people came from…?

I took a photograph of this website, as the consultation finished on November the 3rd and started in the beginning of August, and this was posted on October 6th. So by October 6th only 81 tenants in the area had responded to this survey…! Which made me suspicious of these 427 complaints because that was in the same year.

So I asked Mr Collis ‘only 81 tenants have bothered to fill in this survey, so where are these 427 complaints anyway?’ -Which I’ve asked for under the Freedom of Information Act but they keep stalling for various things, sending me wrong bits of paper, etc.- And I thought; surely these 427 complaints would be first in the queue to fill in this survey to say what they think of their local landlord… but no!

And his reply was ‘Oh, they’ve probably all moved on by now…’ and I thought; What, in the same year 2014/2015?!…

So anyway, I believe all this information within the consultation is fraudulent and untrue and I said to Mr Collis ‘you’ve actually used this survey to fund your evidence to bring this in. And all these statistics that you’ve given to me here, which you’ve published to the Council, and given to the Lord Mayor (who agreed with this) they are completely false and you can’t prove that they aren’t.’ He didn’t have anything to say and just continued to mumble in a very confused fashion and went away!

P.Routledge: What Anne has here is for infinity and beyond. Landlords in Eastville and St George can’t overturn the selective licensing decision because it’s gone past its judicial review date, but the law is still on these landlords side if they can prove that the case was perfunctory; that there were lies, deceit, inadequacies and corruption within the initial consultation to get it through.
All of these are the definition of maladministration. Maladministration is actually an easier route to go down than judicial review because you can take it to the ombudsman. So all Anne needs to do is build a case as an individual and then make the case to the ombudsman to get her £470 back. Once she’s successfully done that, the precedent will be set for the other 2,000 odd landlords in Eastville and St George to get their perfunctory licensing fee back.

S. Jackson: I think another important point here is that they just see it as you. One person, and they just think ‘oh, she’ll go away… let’s keep batting her off and putting her to the side…’ But what if there was 1,000 of us? They know what’s happened in North Somerset and North Somerset could see that we were literally unfolding the lies as we were going through our Freedom of Information requests. They’re not stupid, but they also know its power in numbers.

Standing alone can be quite overwhelming. I mean, lots of landlords rang me after the Selective Licensing in North Somerset was announced in January this year and were saying ‘oh, should we bother? I’m really fed up of this, are you going to bother? What can we do on our own?...’ And actually I felt like that, so I resigned as vice chair from the N.S landlord forum. And then I rang Paul and said I can’t do this on my own and that’s how this all started.

It’s about taking notice and not standing alone.

A.Pargeter: I think one of the big problems I’ve experienced is their attitude. They don’t want to work with you (BCC), they want to work against you and just have this ‘give me the money’ attitude.

S. Jackson: The bottom line here is that they’re skint! Why are they doing selective licensing? They have got all the powers in their hands to reach bad landlords and this is nothing more than a money making exercise and if anyone thinks anything different then they’re mad! This is literally a scam.

Question: Do you know how many people are working on this?

Answer: They will get 2 million pounds tomorrow, just from Eastville and St George. They have got 10-12 (‘to 12’, because some of them are part time) environmental health officers going round and they have 7-8 people (because, of course, they’re part time) doing the administration. With this whole scheme and you have one visit.

Question: Doing how many properties?

Answer: 4,000.

P. Routledge: So, it is physically impossible for them to carry out what they said they were going to do?… That’s maladministration and that’s how you’re going to get your £470 back.

Question: How on earth can you defend a situation where you set the threshold at 20% and just by the simple sums of the number of properties, you’ve just identified that the complaints where less than 20% and then go onto preach something as a success?

Answer: They can’t! But no-ones gone to them and said ‘have you read your stats?!’ They are getting away with it because you’re not asking. And that’s the problem you have guys; you need numbers.

Question: As you were saying, we need solidarity in some way. Someone to represent us as a body, to go forward. But we’ve got the NLA, the RLA; so why aren’t they doing anything about it?

P. Routledge: They are; they’re rolling over and dying! The NLA are trying to work with Local Authorities; when was the last time the NLA got up on the BBC and stood up for landlords? They don’t do it! They don’t dare because they don’t care, they want your £89 a year! The NLCE isn’t about £89, it’s about us as landlords and we’re trying to make a difference. You’re right, they’re not doing anything but we are.

Question: Bristol might not be adopting their own rental scheme – did you know that?...

Acorn Group have been lobbying and it looks like the PRS team are going to have to accept their ‘Ethical Lettings Charter’ rather than their own standard.

P. Routledge: We will be having a big say on that at our next meeting. I had the guy who is the head of the Weston Acorn branch, Alan Rice, on the phone for an hour and I said to him ‘Perhaps you’d be kind enough to tell me about your pedigree so that I can understand that we’re on the same level. So how long have you been a landlord? When were you a landlord?’ and he said ‘I’ve never been a landlord.’ So then I asked ‘So when were you a tenant?’ and he replied ‘I was a tenant 30 years ago, I own my home now.’ So I asked ‘What did you do for a living?’ and he replied ‘I was an insurance salesman.’ So I said ‘I’m going to just state one thing, you’re quoting from the health and safety executive here about housing standards which we proved was perfunctory data. They also quoted their housing stock figures from the 2012 EPC register…’ and he asked ‘What’s an EPC?’ …!

Landlord: We’ve already raised the point of them being anarchists/vigilantes with the Council, after they threw paint over CJ Hole. Why would they want to align themselves with that sort of violence?...

S. Jackson: I’ve been watching quite a lot about Acorn, and it surprises me that the Bristol Councillor had a photo taken with his arm round an Acorn member when there are Acorn members out there who are making personal threats through the likes of Facebook – as Paul has experienced first-hand. So I’m very surprised that a councillor would want to have anything to do with this kind of behaviour.

I am going to meet with them and speak with them, as they are a group of people who also have a voice and need to be heard; just as we are.

P. Routledge: And this is why we’ve got to get just one case set in precedent to start the ball rolling.

A. Pargeter: I’ve set up a meeting with Cllr Paul Smith (Cabinet Member for Homes) on October 21st, so let’s see how that goes.

P. Routledge: I’m happy to come with you Anne. We’ll meet a day before and set our case out. We need as much data as we can get by then. The point here is that you cannot just blanket license decent people on the basis that you’re going to find 3 rogue landlords.

A.Pargeter: If anyone has any input or they know something or feel something particular we may have missed please do share it, as we need as much help as we can get.

P. Routledge: Yes. And we need to get the attention of letting agents, as they hold the key to thousands of landlords across Bristol who are and will be affected by this at some point.

Any other business: n/a

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13/10/2016
1:11 pm
Tim Pilkington
Guest
Guests

I got my selective licence application in to the council on the 1st October because I was waiting on my electrical inspection certificate which I thought I needed to make the application.  Working overseas and 5 hours behind the UK, I am not as informed of the scheme details as locals. 

I also submitted an EPC and a recent gas safety certificate, which I had to chase down from the letting agent, so I am classed as a "compliant landlord".  I emailed the council with all this and proof of having paid the £470 application fee, and asking for the trivial delay vs their deadline to be ignored.

Their response: your application came in after midnight so that will be another £400.

I have asked for this to be escalated to the director of housing for review because, if they are actually interested in the housing conditions and compliance with epc, electrical inspection, gas safety etc, then surely they would be satisified things were OK and I was compliant in spirit, if not absolutely in detail, so they will let me have the compliant landlord rate.

If they are only in it for the money, then they will keep on demanding the extra £400 and that will be proof that they don't actually care about the certification, it is just an excuse.

And they had better watch out because as an ex-grade 7 civil servant I have some insight into how governement is supposed to work.

So far, no response.  9 days waiting.  Chased again today.

26/10/2016
12:26 pm
Timothy Pilkington
Guest
Guests

An update on the above.  The council put this through their appeal process and decided, surprise surprise, that there were no extenuating circumstances and they therefore needed another £400.

 

I now have a link to the Governement Ombudsman. 

 

They could of course have decided that a delay of just a few hours after an arbitrary deadline was of no consequence whatsoever, especially as all the certificates were provided, one of which was issued on the day of the deadline. In this instance, they would have waived the extra fee.

 

So the verdict is clear, the Council are just in it for the money and are not displaying reasonable management discretion.

14/12/2016
3:52 pm
Jan Parsons
Guest
Guests

I heard nothing about this scheme until yesterday afternoon when I was forwarded a document sent by the council to my tenant. Imagine my shock when I found I was being accused of failing to make the licence application by the deadline and had to pay £770. When I phoned the council I was told that the council had no legal obligation to inform landlords, and that it was my responsibility to inform myself of changes in legislation. They could easily have found my contact details from the council tax department, who know that I am the landlord, and surely they have a duty to make some attempt to contact landlords directly. If such a scheme is needed, then surely it does not have to cost so much, and surely there should be a more effective method of informing landlords that they have to register? Reading the document outlining the appeals procedure it is clear that I have no form of redress via that route.  So the upshot is that the council can demand any amount of money from any person for failing to comply with new legislation that they did not bother to inform them of - any private company or organisation would never get away with such extortion.

I am just an ordinary person (in poor health) owning one flat as a way of providing some income, and now I suddenly have to find £770 less than 2 weeks before Christmas, or face a fine of an unlimited amount. As a woman of a certain age, I don't get any pension until 7 years after I was supposed to for the majority of my working life because the government sneakily moved the goalposts on that. I am an intelligent person, but I had to call the council 4 times for guidance whilst I spent most of yesterday in a state of shock trying to fill in the form correctly. The person I spoke to had to go and ask her supervisor how to fill in the parts of the form I was querying. If such a scheme is needed, then surely it does not have to cost so much, and surely there should be a more effective method of informing landlords that they have to register?

Is there a way to set up a petition or something for Bristol Landlords to band together and get this shambles overturned on the basis of maladministration and extortion? 38 degrees, or something similar?

14/12/2016
4:11 pm
Bobsoludo
Guest
Guests

I'm sorry to hear about your story Jan, I think it may be too late to do anything as I think Paul and a couple of Bristol landlords have already tried? (correct me if I'm wrong someone, please!)

As a Gloucestershire based landlord with properties in Gloucester and Weston I've joined the newly set up NLCE landlord accreditation recently, for further proof that I'm a good landlord should selective licensing come to the area I'm in. Maybe you should too? Have a look at http://www.nlceuk.co.uk - Sorry I can't be of any further assistance.

Regards,
Bobsoludo.

14/12/2016
4:31 pm
J.C
Guest
Guests

Jan Parsons said
I heard nothing about this scheme until yesterday afternoon when I was forwarded a document sent by the council to my tenant. Imagine my shock when I found I was being accused of failing to make the licence application by the deadline and had to pay £770. When I phoned the council I was told that the council had no legal obligation to inform landlords, and that it was my responsibility to inform myself of changes in legislation. They could easily have found my contact details from the council tax department, who know that I am the landlord, and surely they have a duty to make some attempt to contact landlords directly. If such a scheme is needed, then surely it does not have to cost so much, and surely there should be a more effective method of informing landlords that they have to register? Reading the document outlining the appeals procedure it is clear that I have no form of redress via that route.  So the upshot is that the council can demand any amount of money from any person for failing to comply with new legislation that they did not bother to inform them of - any private company or organisation would never get away with such extortion.

I am just an ordinary person (in poor health) owning one flat as a way of providing some income, and now I suddenly have to find £770 less than 2 weeks before Christmas, or face a fine of an unlimited amount. As a woman of a certain age, I don't get any pension until 7 years after I was supposed to for the majority of my working life because the government sneakily moved the goalposts on that. I am an intelligent person, but I had to call the council 4 times for guidance whilst I spent most of yesterday in a state of shock trying to fill in the form correctly. The person I spoke to had to go and ask her supervisor how to fill in the parts of the form I was querying. If such a scheme is needed, then surely it does not have to cost so much, and surely there should be a more effective method of informing landlords that they have to register?

Is there a way to set up a petition or something for Bristol Landlords to band together and get this shambles overturned on the basis of maladministration and extortion? 38 degrees, or something similar?

When i spoke to bristol city council when asking about one of my places, i raised this with them, they stated that they would send a letter to the address and inform me that the property fell within any boundry. I don't know why, but i am always so shocked how 1 department can say so many different things. Surely all of this just cant be legal. They may tell us its legal, but surely there must be regulations that stop the council just imposing such ludicrous charges on landlords who want to comply.

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