Revenge Evictions (Retaliatory Eviction) - Paul talks on the BBC Politics Show | Discuss

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Revenge Evictions (Retaliatory Eviction) - Paul talks on the BBC Politics Show
02/02/2015
2:47 pm
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Paul stands up for landlords with regards to revenge evictions and more landlord legislation. Watch the video and please let us know your thoughts below. 

02/02/2015
3:22 pm
Paul Routledge
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I was amazed that these two seemed to really believe that landlords across the UK were just throwing out elderly and vulnerable tenants willy nilly and that local authorities, the CAB shelter and the rest of the tenant support groups turned a blind eye to us doing it.

To suggest that tenants never knew their rights and that they could not prosecute landlords with the existing legislation seemed a bit ridiculous and if that was the case why try and bring in more legislation then?

I do not support bad landlords but most of us know that most of the tenants that end up in these places end up there because they cannot get better because of previous problems. I lived in a bedsit that had numerous problems when I was young but I can honestly say that my shower, toilet, bath and sink never looked like that.

On lady said that the gutters had never been cleared, since when was it a landlord’s job to clean their tenant’s gutters? The problem is these MP’s think we should offer 5* homes for nothing and constantly use landlords and the PRS as spin to get votes.

Embarrassingly someone said “Paul you should become a politician” my reply was I don’t think I can because I know what I am talking about and I don’t lie.

A friend sent this over and I think it sums it all up for me.  

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02/02/2015
3:23 pm
Mary Latham
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Hahahahaha

"The problem is you don't know what you are talking about"  Paul that is just classic, a Politician who does not know what he/she is talking about who ever heard of that!!

You are right there is sufficient legislation in place to stop criminal landlords offering substandard properties but IT IS NOT ENFORCED

It is so typical of Politicians to take isolated cases and keep repeating them but to ignore the overall picture, yes there are vulnerable tenants who are mistreated and that is wrong but councils should take action against those landlords and drive them out of business not ask for more powers which will also be ignored by those criminal landlords

Introducing more legislation is a waste of time because that will also not be enforced and the only landlords who will comply are the good ones.

Unless Government put measures in place to monitor local authorities enforcement action against criminal landlords they have no basis upon which to base more regulation.

Revenge evictions do take place as do murders, robberies, thefts all done by people breaking the law - we do not give up on the laws and introduce new ones we up investigation, enforcement and punishment.

Well done Paul but if I ever upset you can you let me know please (scary)

Mary Latham Landlord

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02/02/2015
4:23 pm
lister14
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Well done Paul.

We need to get you on tv more often and educate the politicians about PRS.

Yes the property needed repair and should be repaired urgently and the council should be on the landlords case and enforce the law. This should not stop the tenants from cleaning the shower and tiled walls. The wash basin was discussing with the taps covered in limescale this is basic house work not building maintenance. Condensation is a major problem but again it can be controlled and if tenants change their life style and clean and open the windows it can be kept to a minimum. I can not believe it when tenants show reporters black mold and say its the LL fault and the reporters believes them. They are never asked when did you clean and ventilate the area last. Is it because the reporters like the politicians don't know what they are dealing with and how to cure it.

Paul we need you on the election debates. Keep up the good work

02/02/2015
4:37 pm
Paul Routledge
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Trust me Lister I had a lot more up my sleeve. I came very close to telling the Labour MP that we would probably had a lot more money for new housing if labour had not nearly bankrupt the country by spending 13 years in power living a captain’s lifestyle on a corporals wages.SurprisedLaugh

02/02/2015
4:53 pm
Amy
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Please watch Inside out on BBC tonight . Dss landlords plight 

02/02/2015
5:28 pm
VanceHarvey
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Mmmmm... very interesting debate - pity it didn't go on longer; Paul... you seemed to send the Labour woman off with a right flea in her ear the way she was ranting at the end - the other chap just seemed to look somewhat bemused at the end.As is said above, you should get yourself onto more debates like this as it might just bring to sense to some of the politicians who rant and rave about Landlords and the PRS.

And I very much agree with you about your comments on how Labour bankrupted the country in their last period of ruling, so Heaven helps us that they get back in again!

02/02/2015
5:44 pm
Paul Routledge
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Vance,

If they get in we are doomed, I must say her face after I told her that she didn’t know what she was talking about was an absolute picture she had pursed lips tighter than a duck derriereSurprised

The problem is that if our politicians are throwing about insinuations without forethought that we throw our tenants out on the street what hope in hell do we have at resolving the divide between landlords, letting agents and tenants.

I have no idea why they seem to think more legislation would be better than enforcing what we already have. What the blazes do they think the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 was for and why are they not enforcing that and the 2004 housing act to deal with these landlords.  At a guess it may be because it has nothing to do with reality it has everything to do with getting 9 million tenants to vote for you because you promise them jam doughnuts and free bear for life paid for by their landlords.

02/02/2015
7:14 pm
Amy
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To 

say tenant damage was criminal damage shows that they are completely ignorant of landlord law and they were so rude to shout over paul, and not let him reply 

02/02/2015
7:17 pm
Adam Hosker
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Great Video Paul; its a shame you could not get a bit more in to show their incompetence when it comes to Private Rented Sector.

I mean; both MP's admitted that they allowed their constituents to live in such squallier. When all they had to do was to call there colleges in Environmental Health to get this sorted under HHSRS.

I was having a bit of a go - at Emma Raynolds MP on twitter as she wasted parliaments time in 2014 trying to make it law that you had to have smoke alarms.... Already required under HHSRS.

I think the S21 issue will be lost on most Paul; its complex but I agree completely. Its simply two people who entered a contract bringing it to an end after an agreed term. If it is being abused! .. the best tip the MP's can give is to get a tenancy renewal before reporting boiler broken.
(but it'd cost me more money and time, to evict, than it would just to fix boiler... and if i try and evict, HHSRS will require me to fix boiler before they move out anyway... or if not .. id have ot put a new one in before a new tenant enters).

Such nonsense; great video Paul.

02/02/2015
8:30 pm
Jo
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Paul Routledge said
I was amazed that these two seemed to really believe that landlords across the UK were just throwing out elderly and vulnerable tenants willy nilly and that local authorities, the CAB shelter and the rest of the tenant support groups turned a blind eye to us doing it.

To suggest that tenants never knew their rights and that they could not prosecute landlords with the existing legislation seemed a bit ridiculous and if that was the case why try and bring in more legislation then?

I do not support bad landlords but most of us know that most of the tenants that end up in these places end up there because they cannot get better because of previous problems. I lived in a bedsit that had numerous problems when I was young but I can honestly say that my shower, toilet, bath and sink never looked like that.

On lady said that the gutters had never been cleared, since when was it a landlord’s job to clean their tenant’s gutters? The problem is these MP’s think we should offer 5* homes for nothing and constantly use landlords and the PRS as spin to get votes.

Embarrassingly someone said “Paul you should become a politician” my reply was I don’t think I can because I know what I am talking about and I don’t lie.

Paul, you rock!!!Cool - The national landlords association tenancy agreement that I use does inform the tenant that the gutters and all outside drainage is the landlord's responsibility. I do deal with it. Better than dealing with the damp when they don't.

Those properties in Bristol looked bad but if the tenants actually utilised a sponge and some thick bleach they would look a darn site better. I expect the sink wasn't blocked when they moved in. All those plants would cause condensation to mop up in any property!

Just because the rogue landlord doesn't live up to responsibility does not mean that the tenant should not. Unfortunately it may have been better for the politics programme if they spoke to Paul first! Shelter are there like a shot I'm surprised the teants haven't heard of them. 

Why do these politicians NOT realise that the legislation is there and not enforced? Why not take the information as opposed to pretending they know, understand and disagree with just one example eachYell?

02/02/2015
9:34 pm
joe bloggs
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Q - 'since when was it a landlord’s job to clean their tenant’s gutters?'

A - since at least 1985.  unblocking gutters is a LL responsibility under s.11 L&T Act 1985.

otherwise i agree with your sentiments but dont think its helpful blaming labour for the recession etc.  the conditions they showed were appalling and clearly is not the tenants fault that a shower in a flat above is leaking.  this has to be acknowledged, together with sensible solutions as to how to deal with these landlords.  i agree more enforcement rather than more law is needed.

03/02/2015
3:05 am
Paul Routledge
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joe bloggs said
Q - 'since when was it a landlord’s job to clean their tenant’s gutters?'

A - since at least 1985.  unblocking gutters is a LL responsibility under s.11 L&T Act 1985.

otherwise i agree with your sentiments but dont think its helpful blaming labour for the recession etc.  the conditions they showed were appalling and clearly is not the tenants fault that a shower in a flat above is leaking.  this has to be acknowledged, together with sensible solutions as to how to deal with these landlords.  i agree more enforcement rather than more law is needed.

Joe,

If you are referring to repairing obligations in short leases I think you may find that cleaning a gutter is not a repair and rather a maintenance issue to which a tenant would be responsible. I think most tenancy agreements stipulate that it is the tenant’s responsibility to maintain the cleanness and functionality of the premises that they call a home.

I am sorry but those premises in the video may be in disrepair and obviously from an ongoing water penetration problem from above and should be repaired, however that still does not mean that the sanitary wear needs to look like that and I have attended many of my properties over the years where I have refused to carry out repairs if a tenant has not cleaned the toilet etc. The point then is where do you start fixing a leak on the back of a toilet that is covered in years of caked on excreta, it is just is not an option to any plumber to get their head near that and why should a landlord have to clean that up before they start repairs.

You can see the door that the lady refers to in putting a lock on has been kicked off so many times the case has split and the hardboard facia has torn away, is this the fault of the landlord how many times are we expected to carry out free repairs to a tenants property that they have smashed up whilst in domestic dispute or drunk.

It is a wider issue that needs to be addressed but certainly not one that is dealt with by politicians laying the blame at a landlords feet all the time, it is six to one and half a dozen to another and we need to start to get the balance by professional landlords and tenants working together to get a national charter. It is not the place for ignorant politicians to use it for political spin before a general election.

03/02/2015
3:07 am
Transatlantic Landlord
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Hello folks!

I'm a new member, have been following this site and forums for several weeks, and love it all!  

My version of the lowdown on this debate: it's aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall about politics and the trojka of politicians, legal pros, and media scratching each other's backs and giving each other sustainable income.  Politicians make money outta talking about things, doing jack, and creating legislation and laws for legal pros to have jobs.  Legal pros make money outta stringing out the bureaucracy by finetuning the details and perfecting the complications.  And media make money outta bad news.  Media love this type of debates, because they know damn well that the landlord - tenant conflict will never be resolved unless we the GOOD PRS landlords use social media as did hooligans for the 2011 or 12 - don't remember - looting outbreaks, organize another Guy Fawke's night, and take the job of burning the politicians in the houses of parliament to hell to the end!  The way the media pros work can be immensely frustrating for show guests as was Paul, because many presenters steer the debates with biases and in biased language which often forces a guest to respond in a certain manner [which the guest doesn't agree with and didn't intend] if the guest is to answer the presenter's questions correctly. Besides, what's shown on TV is often heavily edited to show only the best bits and create tension which is what the general public wants to watch / hear / feel.  Hence EastEnders and similar nonsense has done so well for years and even people abroad still wanna watch it!  

I'm convinced that some - not all, but some - politicians are well aware of what they're talking about!  But because it's politics and politics is about turning things around to make one look good etc, those politicians who know well what they're talking about choose exactly clips such as the one from the property in Bristol to emphasize how bad the situation that these politicians wanna be made look good in is!  That's where media come in.... and the virtuous circle of the trojka goes on...  

So I personally see this landlord - tenant conflict resolved in one of the following cases:

1. if we PRS GOOD landlords organize another Guy Fawke's night... 

2. when the current generation of politicians dies out

3. when a handful of us starts a revolution, because no matter how "angry" the presenter described the debate to be, who's gonna listen?  In the UK the majority of the population seems to be angry, so nobody responds to anger anymore.  Might a revolution finally be heard?  Or not even that?  Then what if not even that?  

4. if more, more more people stop being afraid of speaking exactly what they mean without offending someone.  In the world of business pissing someone somewhere off by the decisions we make is inevitable.  So what?  The offended will get over it - perhaps come out even tougher and will thank us one day for doing them the favor of toughening them up!  And if they don't get over it, what will they do?  Cause civil war?  I don't think so!  

5. We start pushing the trojka to communicate clearly and precisely.  Beraucracy needs to go down, not up! Laws need to be made clearer, defined much more precisely, not leaving vagueries open to different interpretations.  

6. ...and if we learn to treat this landlord - tenant situation not as a conflict, but as two halves that create a healthy complementing whole as it is in the case of yin and yang.  Why should it be us and/against them?  Why could we not somehow educate tenants that violence and neglect won't do their lives any good, because if they continue exercising damage and violence we'll only necessarily be after them and so will everyone else?  

Each of you who contributed to this debate has a fantastic point. Yet we all need to rise above all those points and look for a solution outside the situation - above it all.  Unless we do - and it could take years before some change will start to happen, this situation will remain unchanged. Amen.:)  

03/02/2015
9:53 am
Tenant Referencing
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Hi Transatlantic Landlady! Thanks for joining the site and becoming involved in the discussion. We really appreciate fresh voices and opinions, they keep our forums buzzing!

We agree with your sentiment. There is no point in demonising landlords when some tenants are just as bad and vice versa. The law should be on the side of the person that needs protecting, regardless of whether that be the landlord or tenant. At the moment the law is largely on the side of the tenant, even when it is they that are in the wrong. 

03/02/2015
9:57 am
joe bloggs
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hi paul,

this is what s.11 states:

S.11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 applies to a lease granted on or after 24 October 1961 (s.32 (1) Housing Act 1961) for a term less than seven years and implies into the Tenancy Agreement the following Landlords repairing obligations;

a)   to keep in repair the structure and exterior of the dwelling house (including drains, gutters and external pipes),

b)   to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwelling house for the supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation (including basins, sinks, baths and sanitary conveniences, but not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of the supply of water, gas or electricity) and,

c)   to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwelling house for space heating and heating water.

 

its quite clear the LL is responsible FOR KEEPING IN REPAIR THE GUTTERS.  i think its obvious this includes unblocking them.  this cannot be contracted out of, so it dont matter a jot what is put in a TA. are you seriously saying you wouldnt unblock gutters in your properties?  

as for the cleanliness issue, obviously the tenant will tell the judge 'i gave up/was depressed etc etc by the landlords failures' and lack of cleanliness will be a poor defence to a disrepair action.  if you are representing LL you should be taking a more measured view in my opinion.

i never made any comment about the door.

agreed its LL bashing season, but dont trivialise the serious problems that do exist.  that wont help anyone and makes you look like part of the problem.

03/02/2015
10:28 am
Paul Barrett
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Admirable sentiments!!

However you are up against a fundamental issue

Most tenants hate paying rent.

They see it as legalised robbery and that really they should be in a nice subsidised council property or owning their own property.

They see ALL PRS LL as an impediment to their ultimate aspirations.

Very few  tenants understand that they are just residing in someone's business asset; with which the owner can do anything he likes with it at any time subject to certain legal constraints!

It is unfortunately an adversarial residential rental system in the UK

I don't believe it is viewed like this in places like Germany!

Until the inbuilt resentment of tenants for PRS LL is overcome there will never be any agreement between LL and tenants.

I believe that what Paul R stated is true of much of the political class etc

They DON'T know what they are talking about!!

Yet these are the idiots that formulate and carry out INCORRECT; misguided and stupid public policy!

It would be brilliant if there were people in power who actually knew about the how the PRS LL works.

I fear if silly Ed gets in that there will be a desertion of the PRS by LL

If tenants think they have problems now; just wait until silly Ed starts enforcing his stupid policies.

Personally I will be leaving the PRS ASAP if he gets in.

With rent controls my properties are just plain unviable.

I will just sell up and any resources I have will disappear!

Don't know what will happen to my tenants and quite frankly I don't care.

It won't be my fault that I've been forced to leave the PRS!

So sorry tenants; but I am NOT going to subsidise your lifestyle with rents that cannot service the mortgage payments plus the other inevitable expenses that come with owning a BTL property

Until tenants accept the business proposition that being a PRS LL is they will continue to have completely unrealistic expectations of the rent levels a PRS LL needs to charge.

The law is 99 % in favour of tenants.

Something that those two interviewees didn't seem to understand.

Neatly summed up by Paul R advising thjem that they didn't know what they were talking about!!

What we need is an informed debate.

That wasn't what we had on the Politics show.

I would like to see Andrew Neil asking silly Ed about rent controls.

AN is a less abrasive and far more insightful interviewer than Paxo

He generally runs rings round most of these politicians.

For example just look at that car crash of an interview with the leader of the Greens

That will have put many people off voting Green!!

Unfortunately the detail of being a PRS LL is lost on most tenants; who I'm sure if they knew what the LL has to go through would appreciate the issues the poor old LL has to suffer.

I fear such empathy is a long way away!!

So we are left with essentially tenants resenting paying LL for a much needed service as they feel they should have their own or a cheap council property and that they only have to use an accursed PRS LL because of the unavailability of the other options.

It is this basic resentment in the UK market that will mean LL and tenants never get on!!!

03/02/2015
11:14 am
Paul Routledge
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Joe,

a)   to keep in repair the structure and exterior of the dwelling house (including drains, gutters and external pipes), -

I understand the definition in the English dictionary is.

Repair is to restore (something damaged, faulty, or worn) to a good condition

Maintenance is to preserve a condition or situation on something.

When my tenant takes occupation all the gutters are clear, secure and free running and therefore I expect them to be kept like that. It is a landlord’s responsibility to repair a property and the tenants to maintain it.

I do not cut a tenants lawn, I do not clean a tenants gutters, I do not clean a tenants windows and I do not replace if worn a tenants toilet seat these are all general maintenance issues that should be undertaken by the tenants looking after their home. If they want a hotel service they can book into a hotel at £100 a day rather than paying me £100 a week.

Now of course if it is a 3 story building and they cannot access the gutters and windows I build in a cost in the rent for these to be done by a third party.

I think the problem is that over time tenants have been slowly drip fed that an AST is nothing other than a long term hotel agreement and they have no responsibility to maintain the property, they see it as a kind of cheap hotel service and not a tenants home for which they should care for, if that was the case then like a hotel we should be able to turf them out the minute they do not pay.

03/02/2015
12:19 pm
lister14
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Again Paul you are 100% correct.

The problem tenants and bad LL are not the majority of the PRS. Politicians always use the worst examples and then try and bash all LL over the head. The vast majority of tenants and landlords get on and respect each other. As you said there are laws already in place to sort  out problem LL but very few to sort out bad tenants. You like most LL's who have spent thousands of pounds cleaning, updating and repairing property to provide homes only to have them wrecked by people that believe our only purpose on this earth is to be at their beck and call 247 365 days a year.

Please continue going on TV and telling it as it is in the real world and you will have the support of all the decent landlords and TENANTS because they know what you are doing is the only way the PRS can survive.

03/02/2015
2:49 pm
Mary Latham
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Paul R I know that you are a good landlord but Joe Blogs is 100% correct.

I tell local authorities all the time that many landlords get things wrong because they don't know what they don't know - they are not bad landlords in the sense that they are deliberately breaking the law (as is the common belief) they just don't know the law and can't see the logic. Law often has no logic but Section 11 of the 1985 Act was written to stop the awful landlords who, at that time, were renting appalling properties to people who had no choice because even in those days there was not enough social housing for everyone - people often forget this.  Many local councils bought  properties from private landlords who had sitting tenants and not enough income to maintain them.

These days there are still some of those bad landlords - trust me I have seen the properties that they let and they are shameful - this means that there is no case to update legislation. What makes me angry is that the legislation is not enforced mainly because the tenants who live in sub-standard properties are often those who no one else will take and social housing cannot accommodate - I believe that Government are ignoring the fact that local authorities tolerate bad standards because they have no alternatives and if they closed these landlords down many more people would be homeless.

Look at this article

27% of people say the main cause of homelessness in UK is alcohol or drug addiction - Salvation Army survey reveals 9 million adults drink at levels that increase the risk of harm to their health

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